So I was on my priest earlier today, with my brother on his paladin who was ret, and a friend of ours was on his warrior, tanking. We did the random heroic and it was The Nexus.
In our party was Sellursoul, a warlock from Caelestrasz.
Within the first 30 seconds of the run, I knew it was going to be unpleasant. Sellursoul soulstoned… him or herself.
I said nothing.
We get to the first boss, the Horde Commander. Not only is the warlock standing right up there with the melee, not only that, but the warlock then gets feared (as one does by that guy)… into four mobs on the far side.
I see him in trouble. I wisely elect to let him die rather than pull aggro.
He dies.
He pauses.
HE USES THE SOULSTONE.
Pops up again.
Dies. Again.
All while the actual boss fight is still in progress.
He then releases. And apparently cannot find the entrance, because after the boss and the four adds died (someone else got feared — lesson; tell our tanking friend to pull him back), he was STILL a ghost.
I rezzed him. We moved on.
He is not particularly horribly geared. 5/5 T9 232. I have no idea what warlock specs are supposed to look like, but he seems to be destro and has fire-type glyphs. Haste and hit and crit all seem low to me, but again, I’m not a warlock.
He did precisely 799 dps to the caster boss for less total damage to her than the tank.
WTF.
Moving on.
I make a bet with my brother and our tank that dipshit, as I was referring to him, would pull adds jumping off the platform to the ground.
Neither took the bet, and it’s good for them, because I was right.
It was at about this point that I finally let the warlock have it in party.
“Your imp pulled those adds,” I said. “How do you have that gear and not know how to leave your pet behind on stay or dismiss it?”
No response.
“And you soulstoned YOURSELF instead of the healer. And used it right after you died, whereupon you died immediately AGAIN.”
No response.
“Do you know how to play this game at all?”
No response.
I tried to vote-kick and was informed by the lovely in-game mechanism that I have to wait another 15 minutes for a kick.
ARE YOU KIDDING ME?
We’d already BEEN in a group with this moron for 15 minutes. And now we couldn’t kick him for another 15?
We do Anomolous. Whereupon the warlock doesn’t touch the adds, and continues casting at the boss when shielded.
We do Ormorok and does the warlock dismiss his pet or set him on stay? No. Thank goodness pets despawn on that jump since they get too far away from their owners. I chewed him out about that, too.
And then he pulls the last Ancient as we leave that section.
Seriously?
Finally, we get to Keristrasza. He proceeds to die with 12, count them, TWELVE stacks of the debuff on him, despite my awesomeness in mass dispelling Frost Nova.
I /sighed at him and left the dungeon at the end. I didn’t even rez him. I gave him ample opportunity to show he has a CLUE about his class and the game (in fact, that had been his third run through heroic Nexus, according to the armory) and he failed every single time.
So when game developers tell us that people are “too good” at this game, I say bullshit. There is an ever-widening divide between “good players” and “bad players” and even if I don’t have the foggiest idea how to play a warlock or a rogue or a DK or a warrior, I bet you 10,000 gold that I wouldn’t wipe my party with my mistakes and I probably wouldn’t die like a moron three times in the Nexus, either.
Ultimately, trying to help smart, motivated people close the gap between “good” and “bad” is why I write about holy paladins and other various things. It’s really up to the community to teach people how to play this game, because Blizzard is under the mistaken impression that EVERYONE CAN PLAY. Everyone CANNOT. It is increasingly rare to find DPS in a random who can’t out DPS a semi-geared (ie: 232s and a couple 245s) tank. It is increasingly rare to find a healer who knows how to play even the basics of their class. It is increasingly rare to find a tank who can hold aggro and understands the basics of threat.
I resent Blizzard’s conclusion that the players are all good. They’re not. Most of them, most of the eleven million people who play this game are not just “not good” but actively “bad”. And now I have to wait thirty minutes through potential wipes thanks to morons before I can kick someone?
Next time, I’m just dropping group. I know that the kick delay is now based on our behaviour, but a 30 minute delay (the default, I’m guessing?) is literally more time than the whole instance takes if all goes well. I am not going to sit there in a run where someone is going to die despite my best attempts to keep them alive, or risk our group’s health because they were too dumb to control their pet.
That’s bullshit. Blizzard is way, WAY out of touch with how the majority of eleven million people play and they’re punishing those of us who DO know how to play by making us sit there for 30 minutes babysitting these morons who, five years into the game, don’t understand something as basic as a soulstone or pet pulls or move when you have a stacking debuff.
And now, much as I’d like to continue to bitch, I need to grab food before my raid.
I’ve found that in the last 10 or so PUGS that I’ve run, I’ve been the top DPS and then the tank has been 2nd highest in most of these, how this is happening I don’t know. Haven’t had any issues with any of the other players and what they are doing, but something is seriously wrong with the regularity that I am finding this happening.
mageic – I’ve noticed that, as we start out in heroics, even moderately-geared tanks will easily outdo some of the DPS in terms of damage. As tanks get better geared, they’ll just have more strength on their gear, leading to more attack power, leading to all of their abilities doing more damage to get more threat.
That said, it’s a rare tank that I can’t outdamage on my hunter or mage. The thing is that the tank usually has the first few whacks at the mob and doesn’t generally have cast times. You can get into a nice little rotation as a tank, and they’re all instant, and if you’re the one who pulled, then you’ll probably pull ahead of any DPS that is even just a little bit under your level of gear, unless they REALLY know how to play.
I don’t think I’ve been outdone on damage by a tank who was REMOTELY in my gear ballpark on my hunter in a year. My mage, however, would certainly get beat on single-target damage by a tank who regularly does ICC25 hardmodes, even if she has full 232 T9.
And I’m pretty sure I know how to play my mage! :)
So what I think you’re seeing is tanks being better geared in general now than they were six months ago. At least, for the majority of the issues.
But there definitely ARE a lot of people who are not making the most of their gear because they are just… bad, for lack of a better word. They’re not, I don’t know, casting Arcane Blast 4 times and then waiting for Missile Barrage proc. They’re just hitting Arcane Missiles as soon as it procs, regardless of how many AB stacks they have.
What really actually insults me, as a long-time player, is the complete disregard for old-school mechanics that have not changed over time; pet control, face pulling adds and the like. Sigh. :)
This sounds like a kid who was playing a parent’s toon or something similar. I refuse to believe someone managed to get that gear and be that… bad. The young age would explain the lack of communication too.
The patch hasn’t hit the EU servers yet, but I very much hope you’re wrong and 30 minutes isn’t the default for kicking now. I was looking forward to being able to get rid of rude morons earlier.
(I get a kick out of kicking tanks who think they’re irreplaceable so they can be dickheads…)
Jen – God, I hope that was the case. Oddly, they put out good DPS on Anomolus until he shielded himself…
I think it might be the default until the system adjusts to how you deal with the system. Either that or the system has already been tracking our leaving groups or kicking people and I’m stuck with a 30m delay.
I am cranky because I don’t think Blizzard is doing enough to ensure the good players have a pleasant random experience the way bad players are getting one. Drives me nuts!
It’s freaking ridiculous. I’ve being doing lots of randoms lately on all my toons and I was helping Shadow get gear for his Warrior and Rogue and we ran into the worst players ever. We had a dps DK wearing some tanking gear pulling 800 dps on bosses in Halls of Lightning at one point. I went to an ICC 10 pug on my priest. They brought in a Shaman healer who was wearing, and I kid you not, TWO Heirloom pieces, maybe 3 purples, tons of blues and a green melee trinket. I brought this up with the raid leader [who sounded like he was 8] and he said, “Oh, it’s a 25% buff now, we can just roflstomp our way through ICC now.” Needless to say, he was pulling way less healing than I was and I’m a DISC PRIEST, for gods sake, lol. So bad, and to top things off, after I left when I explained why I was leaving, I got whispered by the Druid healer telling me that my healing was on the same level as the Shaman’s. HELLO, DISC PRIEST. We are bottom healers because we use ABSORPTION SPELLS MOSTLY. WHY ARE PEOPLE SO FAIL?!
SHOOT ME NOW.
Blizzard’s new ways of leveling and such as making BAD PLAYERS. It’s so frustrating. I feel you. I’m not sure if they are doing this on purpose or if it’s just a side effect of their new features.
It needs to stop. Now.
Bad players are making bad players, not Blizzard. It wasn’t the shaman’s fault, it was the raid leader’s. I am VERY happy leveling is easier now, because it means I (and other good players I know) don’t have to spend ages killing pigs in Westfall instead of raiding.
I respectfully disagree Jen. Players are simply not learning how to play their class as they level as Blizzard has made it extremely easy and quick to level. I see why they did this and I am not complaining, as I love to level alts, but at the same time, it’s making people skip through the learning process. That’s how it seems to me.
Osephala and Jen – See, here’s my real issue with it.
1) Blizzard does not teach people how to play their game.
2) Blizzard entices everyone from level 15-80 to do at least one daily random (heroic at 80) dungeon per day.
3) This brings many of us into contact with people who haven’t the foggiest idea how to play the game, versus many of us who do. The good players, however, seem to be woefully outnumbered by the bad players.
4) When the good players would like to toss out bad players from their random groups, they cannot within a reasonable amount of time — or they can, but it goes on their record that they vote-kicked some guy, which will lead to longer delays before vote-kick becomes available.
Why are they doing this? My opinion:
– Blizzard wants to make the whole game more accessible to more people. This is why we have 10 and 25-man raids. This is why we have heroic modes and regular modes. This is Blizzard’s (feeble, IMHO) attempt to cater to both the “casuals” and the “hardcore” group.
– Blizzard does not want to dictate your game play for you. They want anyone to feel free to pay their $15/month and log in and do whatever they want; solo play, achievements, PVP, dungeons, alts, raiding. Whatever you want to do in WoW, you can do, so long as you’re not infringing on other people’s rights within the game. (ie: griefing, harrassment, etc)
– Blizzard knows it has the raiders locked in. It knows we keep coming back because most of us genuinely enjoy the game and many of us are connected to others that we have found in the game and have stuck with.
– Blizzard therefore HAS to make casual play more alluring. What’s one of the most popular rewards in the game? Loot. Making loot accessible to everyone is one of their newer goals. So they stack goodies at the vendors, accessible quickly if you’re a raider (and alongside equal or better gear) and accessible eventually if you’re not.
– The fact remains that the most consistent way for raiders to earn the currency for those rewards is the same way that non-raiders earn them; random dungeons, at least once a day for Emblems of Frost and maybe many times a day for Emblems of Triumph.
– My issue is that Blizzard has let loose 8 million morons who don’t even know how to properly soulstone someone on the 3 million people who know how to play. (Numbers are an exaggeration and not based in fact at all.)
– This is not necessarily due to the fast(er) levelling process, but more due to the facerolling nature of the game as it currently stands. A 25% buff in ICC is HUGE. HUGE. The 5% buff you get in a random is also huge. The fact that you AOE everything instead of single-target things down is a huge difference in learning to play your class, too.
Bottom line: Blizzard seems to be okay with morons playing with non-morons because it earns them money to allow all kinds of different players to play, even when playing with the “big kids”, the hardcore raiders among us.
/rant.
Unfortunately I tend to agree with you on your conclusion Kurn that keeping subscribers running heroics day in day out makes them money… even when the worst players are not taught/challenged to step up and are instead dragged along.
I believe a lot of the L2P stuff is missing. And stepping straight into a Heroic at level 80 isn’t a very good training ground. The week/month after a new expansion has been released and everyone is unsure of the content? Maybe that’s a good training ground. But not when you can go /follow and have the other 4 players in your group win a team success for you.
The incentive to participate is there. The incentive to play well is missing.
Ooh, ooh! Warlocks! I know this one!
Hit looks a little low, considering she’s (going on toon gender) not specced into Suppression, but maybe she usually runs with a draenei and/or shadow priest or something. Having spent a lot of time in that level of gear, sometimes it’s just not worth juggling the hit gems needed to get that last 1% if you’re going to be upgrading something, but it is a little unnerving at the very least.
Considering her low DPS, and her Armory agrees with me, she doesn’t raid. I’d rather see those points from Soul Leech (definitely a raid group utility talent) put into Improved Shadow Bolt. Granted, as destro, there are very few moments where you should be casting Shadow Bolt instead of Incinerate (fire immune mobs/bosses is pretty much the only situation I can think of, actually) but if she squeezed one in every 30 seconds (EASY on a destro rotation) it could prove to be of greater use. I like that she specced into Demonic Aegis, but I hear opinions going both ways as far as using it in a destro build goes. I definitely learned the class on my own, and don’t know what EJ has to say about it, but it’s not a terrible spec in and of itself.
Glyphs are fine. She somehow has VERY low spirit on her gear, something I never managed to do, so leaving out the Glyph of Life Tap was a smart move for her. That really shines as an aff glyph anyway, but since most (good) warlocks will Life Tap/Dark Pact at least once in a while to keep the buff up, I see a lot of players that grab them without really thinking.
She has also only done the Nexus 5 times, according to PUG Checker. That drop down before Anomalous is a bit of a gamble, really, as I’ve done it a few times and forgotten to do the Eye of Kilrogg trick* and haven’t pulled the adds. I go “oh shit oh shit” every time, but… Sometimes they just outrange it. Willing to give her the benefit of the doubt there.
It seems clear to me that this is a case of a player with experience in the game, but not with the class, and a desire to hit 80 as quick as gorram possible. Using a Je’Tze’s Bell and a Darkmoon Card: Illusion trinket on a warlock is laughable in any situation. We’re warlocks! At worst, we have two surefire ways to get mana back, and at best, three.** Not counting consumables or raid buffs. Add in Imp. Soul Leech, and it’s clear that she’s either thinking like an arcane mage, or just grabbed whatever BoEs had spell power on them.
All in all, it’s a fine character with a bit of poorly made choices (in terms of optimization, but I’m all about creative playstyles). It’s just that, as you said, the player wasn’t good. However, I don’t think that (despite our shared horrors in LFG) they really are the majority of the DPS queuing for instances. I’m gonna’ start keeping track of that to see if the amount of stupid that stands out genuinely outweighs the quality players, or if we just tend to notice it more.
* After making a jump that would force your pet to path, a warlock can summon another demon, freezing the current pet in place, and summoning the new one at the warlock’s side. Obviously, you don’t want to summon, say, a Succubus, then resummon your Imp. That’s 20 seconds of downtime for the group, not counting haste, a soul shard, and some mana. BUT, when you summon an Eye of Kilrogg, it costs nothing but a bit of mana, and when you dismiss it, your original pet is right by your side again, pathing be damned. Useful in Kara (dropping down to run to Opera), HoS (Krystallus), or (as mentioned) the Nexus.
** Life Tap and Drain Mana, assuming one of the mobs has mana to drain, plus Dark Pact if you’re affliction.
Oh. And I HATE that boss. I always end up getting feared. I’m supposed to fear THEM, gorramit.
The player is a failure, x missed on a few key points:
1) Stamina gems.
2) Lacking enchants
3) The demon that destro should have out is an IMP. Imps don’t pull agro, IF used correctly (I don’t bother dismissing my imp when I jump, he just runs over, and when he gets there I tell him to attack again).
4) That gear is 100% “I chain run heroics for hours and don’t look at what gear I’m getting just that it’s got a higher ilvl then my old gear”.
5) 5 piece t9 is almost never the correct answer when you can pick up a piece of ilvl 245 for just a little bit more.
6) The lock is MUCH better geared than mine (he is sitting in about 2piece t9 atm iirc) and I know that I can pull nearly 3K dps.
My friends and I pug a lot. We are altaholics, and will try to run the daily on at least 2 characters each, often more. The 2 of us that are most into it have locks (his is still his main) and tankadins. It isn’t unusual for the tankadins to be top DPS, though tankadins are the exception there.
However, it is getting to the point where I’m generally 4th or 3rd on the DPS when I’m healing…
Sometimes I’m 2nd.
I leave you with that :P
The way I see it is different. It’s not WoW per se – it’s the internet, as presented in this lovely Penny Arcade comic: http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/03/19/
We can agree that you have good players, mediocre players and bad players. Why does this happen? I see it like this:
1. Inexperienced player starts the game. Even with the new tutorials and despite what people like to think, WoW is NOT easy to learn. You can have a vague idea of the gameplay and hit 80 and still not understand so many things. This was me on my first character. Admittedly, things might have changed since 2008, but I hit 70 not even knowing that for raiding I need gems+enchants+a certain hit rating and so on. Without reading blogs, Wowhead or having friends to help, mastering the game is hard.
Inexperienced player asks something in the group. “Leet proz” in the group call him a retard, a fail, a baddie or they just kick him. Inexperienced player still doesn’t know how to play.
Sadly, this kind is rare.
2. Rude player. These are the players that think Azeroth revolves around them, even though they have no clue what they’re doing (or they do and they like to point it out at every opportunity). My guess (hope?) is that they’re mostly young and full of angst, not genuinely bad human beings. They’re the ones who won’t ever accept advice, because ‘lol i kno better nub’ and the ones who will abuse player type 1. They’re the ones I feel like smacking upside the head. Repeatedly.
Blizzard could improve the experience for type 1 of bad players. (How? I don’t know, but more detailed tutorials and maybe even quests specialized by role could work.) However, in my experience, type 2 of player is way more frequent, and I don’t think it has anything to do with the leveling speed. They’re just selfish arrogant pricks who don’t give a fuck about anything else but themselves – and they’ll do it at level 15 in DM and at 80 in ICC. Inconsiderate players spoil the game for everyone – us who know how to play and the poor noobs who don’t.
It’s not a perfect example, but a friend of mine has started playing WoW for the first time a couple of months ago. He is a longtime gamer, so he catches on quick, but he’s been asking me a lot of questions I don’t know how to answer even after 3 years of playing this game… Is he going to be a baddie when he hits 80? It’s likely. Does it mean it’s because of Blizzard’s leveling changes? I doubt it, since it’s his first character (= no heirlooms) and he’s really taking his time, even doing grey quests. He very rarely groups and afaik he never dungeons, so I’m sure that, despite exploring his class a lot, he will make a lot of “wtf noob” mistakes when he starts grouping.
(Oh, and at least half the time, players don’t do bad DPS because they don’t know how to play; it’s because they’re too lazy to push their buttons.)
(Sorry for the wall of text…)
A few counter-points, thansal, though generally speaking you’re right on all accounts.
1) Stamina directly translates to a mana pool for a demo and destro lock, only aff locks should shun stam completely. All things considered, she could have made worse choices with gems. She could have made better, to be sure, but.
2) You’re absolutely right, I didn’t even notice the missing enchants. If she can afford epic gems in every slot, and two bad BoE trinkets, she can afford at LEAST the arcanum and inscription.
3) I didn’t notice if Kurn said anything about it in the post, but I’ve had my imp bug a number of times, and it wouldn’t cast Phase Shift. It can (and often will, in my experience) pull aggro in that situation. It seems to happen while still in combat, though without hearing what Kurn has to say, that’s a moot point. I think we would have heard if he had, say, a voidwalker or a felhunter out, though.
4) Point of comparison: Mantle of Catastrophic Emanation is 45 EoT. Kel’Thuzad’s Shoulderpads of Conquest are 30. Granted, that’s only 3 or 4 (2, if you get lucky and get Oc and, say, Gundrak) more heroics, but she could get them NOW. I can see the logic, as I’ve used it myself a number of times. <_< Sometimes you just want to be done running heroics, and hey look! You can grab that next piece. The same holds true for helms. It's 25 more to get a non-set EoT piece than to just grab the set piece.
5) 5/5 isn't always good, and in the case of destro locks, it's especially BAD. The difference, however, is that it probably WAS an upgrade, considering the content she has had access to. We all have our bad experiences with the RNG, and with only two runs in H-FOS and H-POS under her belt… It makes sense in a "get out of blues" sort of way. Not optimal, though I don't see how anyone would argue that she is going for optimal in any way.
6) I have no counterpoint for this, I just wanted to make the lists have the same numbers.
Counter counter points!
1) Stamina is never a viable choice for PvE warlocks. The only situation where you need to suplement your mana with more stamina is when your healer can’t/won’t heal you. and then you are boned any way :P
2) Indeed!
3) I will keep that in mind. I’m not playing my lock much anymore, but the only times I pulled agro there was when my imp was not phased (for buffs) or was on defensive and attacked when still in range of the mobs.
4) My assumption is that they didn’t know about the non-tier pieces as they are sold by different vendors. Same reason they don’t have the EoT Trink/wand.
5) Same as 4 :P
6) Numbers are great!
Counter counter counter points?
First, stamina is a viable choice IF one (or both) of the following are true:
1) You don’t keep Life Tap on a regular rotation, either because you forget or you just like to Life Tap a bunch and scare your healers all at once.
2) You’re running fights with high damage and can’t afford a small health pool while Life Tapping.
In my mind, they’re both completely plausible reasons, especially if you’re new to the mechanics of the class and can’t estimate just how big of a hit your Life Tap will be. It still shocks me when I hit it and barely lose any life. Back in the day, I would Life Tap once and healers would tell me to stop it because they thought I was about to die! I may be the outlier in getting vocal/pansy healers, though.
Second, I actually put off getting the EoT wand because (while it was exceptionally cheap) I could prioritize other pieces and get one that was (for the content I was running) just as good, such as Soulsplinter. Though, again, that’s not what it seems like she was doing.
I’ve been generally lucky as far as my groups go. Every now and then I’ll find myself in a group with a DPS who pulls for the Tank (who happens to be me, if I’m on my DK), or who puts out substandard DPS, or a tank who can’t hold aggro on anything, but most of my irritations come from the “Gogogo” people. That attitude really sticks in my craw.
I do remember when I was leveling my DK, I was Tanking Normal CoS with a healer friend of mine. I was 78, she was 79. It was the first time I’d ever seen a Tree run out of mana. On a trash pull, no less. I took a peek at my Recount to see the Rogue and Shadow Priest in the group doing 600 and 700 DPS respectively. Now, I don’t know Rogue or Priest stuff, but I’m pretty sure that that’s a bit below average in the high 70s. Not to mention that the Priest didn’t have any weapons equipped at all. :/
I kept my dumbfounded remarks confined to whispers to my friend, and at least we were able to complete that run, though I never was able to figure out exactly how…
I’ve always had, and probably always will have, mixed feelings about the way gearing is set up these days with the Emblem system. On the one hand, it proved to be an invaluable method for me to catch up after being away from the game for four months last year. Without the current system, I would have been completely shut out from the Raiding scene in the sense of not even having a chance whether or not to return. (Returning to the game in Naxx-level gear when ToC is current limits your options somewhat. At the time I returned, Heroics were dropping Emblems of Conquest, and it let me catch up fairly well.) I’m sure that it served as a valuable tool for other people as well.
But I also know that it allows people to reach higher levels of potential without ever really learning to play their classes. I’m sure that blame could be reasonably assigned to a few different places. Poor tutorials during leveling? Negligence on the part of the players when it comes to reading up?
As Jen alluded to a bit farther up, there are people who are newer to the game, inexperienced, and genuinely trying to learn. They can get lost in the mix of the just plain bad players. I try to give subpar performers the benefit of the doubt unless/until blatantly obvious stupid moves are made. Like not moving on Keristrasza on any Nexus run after your first. ;)
I don’t want to get into the “elitist” (for lack of a better word off the cuff) mentality of berating and putting down people at the slightest provocation. Maybe it has to do with the fact that my ingame experiences with “high end” players have been almost universally negative. I’ve seen people be genuinely malicious to those who, while capable, are simply inexperienced at whatever the encounter they’re doing happens to be.
I’m good at playing my classes, I think. I’m under no delusions of being among the elite, though, but still, I try my damnedest to at least be courteous. Until I have good reason not to be.
I’m an asshole. However I will rarely confront people with their stupidity, unless I get really exasperated. Generally I just mouth off in vent to my friends :P
Only time I recently came down on some one was a fail bear who got ticked at me for blinking away when I pulled agro instead of running to him (sorry, but getting 2 shot is not good, and I did Iceblock right after blinking, so sod off). At this point I decided to remind him that he shouldn’t be pulling with growl :P (seriously, bears have a charge AND a range high threat pull, why the hell do you pull with growl. This is ALSO why I pulled agro in the first place :P)
Honestly, I like helping players, however the majority of people will take helpful advice as insults, and I don’t feel like dealing with stupid self-righteous idiots after sending them a polite whisper with some help.
Also: Any one that pulls 6-700 dps is simply slacking. You can pull more than that simply spamming some standard attack.
As a point of comparison, I was running Uldaman on my 47 hunter the other day. The healer mentioned that I was peaking at 400 DPS, single-target, in BoAs, random dungeon bag blues, and PvP blues/epic bracers.
Hunters are stupid OP, but not 30 levels ahead of their group…
re: xmolder’s quote: “…if the amount of stupid that stands out genuinely outweighs the quality players, or if we just tend to notice it more…”
That’s the big question, isn’t it. To be honest, and while I like reading Kurn’s fail posts, this post made me think this question as well. It’s something keeping an eye on over the next month or so, at least.
re: Kurn’s quote: “The fact that you AOE everything instead of single-target things down is a huge difference in learning to play your class, too.”
This concept is going to be VERY interesting to watch come Cataclysm. I believe I’ve read that the developers are interested in bringing back increasing the need for crowd control in group content. You’re going to have a whole group players that have never used their CC in dungeons before, vice AOEing the carp out of everything. I can’t wait to see the QQing about the Shattered-Halls-type pulls we may see in Cataclysm.
re: thansal’s quote: “I’m an asshole.” Yeah, I’m that guy, too. I just carp about it to my wife. Who generally just rolls her eyes, because she’s played with me when I’m on my…err…not as well developed (rotation-wise) toons. =^)
And I’m going to have to go over this comment section again when I get home, because my ‘lock (Nanolock on Duskwood) I think needs a bit of work on his DPS. ;^)
Ag
Oh random dungeon thingie. It kills me to read stories like this. This isn’t uncommon. I almost always get stuck healing tanks who just can’t keep/pull aggro off of me. I don’t even understand it. Funny, because I was just in a group with a Warlock the other day who soustoned himself. When I pointed it out (and mind you, I’m the healer) their response was “Oh, I thought I had him targeted.” Uh huh.
I am severely under-geared on my druid. I make no claim to be “OMGBadAss” either. My first heroic upon hitting 80 was ToC. I let my party members know that I probably couldn’t heal though it. My GS was somewhere in the 2k range (and that’s with Heirloom items!). The group encouraged me to at least try, and only one person died. I picked up a few emblem items and found myself in Forge of Souls. Again, I let the group know that I probably couldn’t heal though it… but I did. Somehow.
What I don’t understand is how people can play a class like Warlock and no understand them. Being a tank, or a healer, much harder. So damn much to pay attention to. I don’t even know how you DID it before addons existed to help make healing easier (at least for me).
It’s frustrating to get tanks who can’t keep aggro, or DPS that doesn’t, y’know, DPS. And even more frustrating that you’re stuck having to deal with these types of players over and over again. It’s any wonder why good players top playing.
Just the other day I was telling the bf that there should be a ranking system, similar to Xbox Live. Where you rate the player depending in the role they filled. And based on this ranking you get placed into certain types of groups. Eh. Sounds great on paper. Probably not so easy to do for real.
Also, *hugs* Sorry for your frustration(s)>
Good Lord, you guys have been busy. NOW is when I see so many frequent commenters and think that maybe a forum is worth it…
Cassandri – That’s exactly it. “The incentive to play well is missing.” People don’t have to play well in the majority of accessible content. Regular dungeons, heroic dungeons, most of the raid instances, none of them require PROPER gear and PROPER specs and PROPER play. The exception is heroic ICC and heroic RS, I would imagine. Even TOGC is successfully puggable up ’till Anub’arak, as long as you’re not going for insanity.
I tried to go to Ruby Sanctum on my hunter last night, which ultimately got cancelled before we got saved, but people were STOMPED by trash. The raid leader said, several times, to please interrupt the blast wave thing by the Invokers. About 15 of them got off, killing half the raid. It’s not like we didn’t have DPS warriors, enhancement shammies, rogues… No one bothered.
X – I’d never heard of the Eye of Kilrogg trick before. Good stuff!
It seems clear to me that this is a case of a player with experience in the game, but not with the class, and a desire to hit 80 as quick as gorram possible.
I don’t know. What warlock, what ranged class, stands in melee range? What person with any experience with the game soulstones themselves, dies, then rezzes and dies again? Like, the mobs were RIGHT on top of them.
thansal – It was an imp. The imp pathed down the far ramp, pulling the arcane mobs that way. It was a facepull by the imp. I’ve seen this happen in the last month or so by any pet you’d care to mention: hunter pets, warlock pets, ghouls.
I agree that 5pcT9 is almost never ideal. I think my mage has 5pc but that’s because I don’t DO anything with my mage and I don’t know which pieces to keep, etc, etc.
It’s very sad if you’re ever 2nd on DPS while healing. :(
Jen – Nice link, hahaha. :)
There are FAR too many rude players. I don’t mind people who are inexperienced in general (as long as they’re not apping to ICC 25 HM guilds), and I ESPECIALLY don’t mind people who are willing to learn. It’s the other ones I want to throttle.
As to your friend, he may suck when he hits 80, but I’ve found that the ones who really like the game and are curious about it WILL read up on stuff. I remember learning what it would take to raid MC and Ony. I was reading everything I possibly could. I knew exactly how to attune people to MC and Ony with just a few hours of effort. And promptly compiled that information for my guild at the time so that people didn’t need to do the work I just had.
I think it depends on the accessibility of the information and the personality type, assuming your friend isn’t one of the rude players you mention. ;)
I don’t understand the concept of being too lazy to hit a button…
Walls of text are welcome here, btw! :)
X – It was an imp, like I said to thansal and there was plent of time to Phase Shift him between the end of the fight on the platform and jumping down to the arcane mobs.
thansal – I assume that this person is an idiot, which is why they don’t have EoT stuff. But that’s just me. ;)
X – Aren’t warlocks supposed to keep Life Tap in a rotation for a buff or something?
Will – The “gogogo” people need to gtfo of my game. :P
… the priest had NO WEAPONS AT ALL?!
I have mixed feelings about Emblems as well. On the one hand, it’s great to not have to pick raiders who did the previous tier of content and got geared out the wazoo. On the other hand, yes, people get to get invites and stuff to raid content where it becomes obvious they don’t know HOW to play, based on their gear that they get from doing much lower-level content. It’s like, hi, here, let’s skip Tier 7 and Tier 8 ENTIRELY! Hello! Welcome to Tier 9!
I think a lot of people are to blame — the players for not taking the time to understand their class mechanics or game mechanics. Blizzard for not teaching people how to play. Rude players who won’t help the “noob”.
Being courteous is something that even I end up not doing sometimes. It’s hard to always be NICE even in the face of epic fail. :( I think this is the worst side effect of raiding in my prior guild for 9 months. My tolerance for idiocy has plummetted.
thansal – Bears. Pulling with growl. Ouch. I think he deserved whatever you said. :P I agree, btw, there’s not a good way to tell players “ur doin it wrong”. ;)
Agnostique – I try to think about my non-fail pugs. I honestly don’t think I have them anymore. In every random instance I do, there is always at LEAST one idiot who is clearly doing things *wrong*. Whether it’s the Beast Master hunter who isn’t sending his pet in or the paladin who thinks Seal of Light is hot, there’s always someone. If you’re LUCKY, it’s a DPS.
I cannot WAIT for Cataclysm for that reason precisely. I LOVED Shattered Halls as a hunter. Don’t get me wrong — I hated all the dungeons (not raid instances, but the dungeons) in BC. But I hated Shattered Halls the least on my hunter because I could kite and trap. It was beautiful. I can’t WAIT for these morons to go “wtf”. The trash in Ruby Sanctum will hopefully be a wakeup call to some of these people. I think most of it is CCable. My brother reports that Wyvern Sting works on them, at the very least.
Deinera – Sugaaaaaaaaaar! Wait. You’re a HEALER these days? What?!
I like the ranking idea. The trouble is, groups of people with lower ratings will never complete groups without someone who knows how to play in there with them. Then they’ll get frustrated and stop playing. And that’s lost money for Blizzard. Sigh.
hehehe
I actually have really good luck with pugs.
Recently did a VH random where the warrior tank had no ranged, rings, trinks, or back piece. We were all kinda like “What?”. Dude held agro against my mage, and did his fair share of DPS. Explanation? He was just recently hacked :P (he was in the best crafted gear he could get + heirlooms). Worst bit? Some one made a crack about his name: “yourmistake”.
Or cases where the DPS are all at about half my GS, yet they all deal well more DPS then I do.
As for Lifetap.
Glyph of Lifetap converts 20% of your spirit to SP when you use LT. The fail-lock doesn’t have it. X thinks it’s pardonable, I don’t think that 88SP is something pardonable :P
I do play a healer now. I actually quit like it, except when Mages think their tanks. And 5.8-6.2k GS Pally’s, Warriors, and DKs act like douche bags and pull aggro from the tank. If I wanted a group with 4 tanks, they’d let me queue for one with mage tanks. I left a group the other day because I explained to the elitist douche-bags that while I was undergeared, yes I can heal. Yes I’ve healed this dungeon before (it was something lame like Gundrak). Yes I can also heal a bunch of noobs through PoR, ToC and FoS, so please stop being douches and pulling aggro. The mage decided to pull a mob. Almost died. I should have let them die. When I asked why they were all tanks, I got “???” and left. Screw them. Anyway, now I’m just bitching.
That’s the thing with the ranking though, you’d only be able to get one retard in your group instead of 4. There should be a way to balance it out so you’re not stuck with people who clearly have no idea what they’re doing. I mean really now. Really?? /facepalm. I realize there are major flaws with the ranking system, but I’m sure they pay someone over there in corporate to think of ways to figure this out. Right?? /headdesk.
Glyph of Life Tap is best kept for locks with an abundance of spirit on their gear. There’s not a whole lot on our tier (9, at least) gear, but there is on shared, so it depends on what your stats look like. For example, I have 605 unbuffed (685 with DS, 753 with Kings? Am I mathing that right?) which would give 121 spell power before buffs. That’s a pretty fantastic amount, and as I prefer aff (rolling Corruption with NMIC and Glyph of Life Tap is FANTASTIC, even though spell power is rechecked on the refresh, the Glyph should always be up) I can justify it.
However, as the warlock in question has 439 (unbuffed, more with DS and Kings), that’s only 88 extra spell power, like thansal pointed out. With the way Immolate and Incinerate work with each other, Immo will always be up and Incinerate, being a filler, should get all the buffs it can. I’d rather see Glyph of Conflagrate, Glyph of Incinerate, and Glyph of Chaos Bolt, to be completely honest.
The biggest thing to remember about Glyph of Life Tap on a lock is that, unless the player is diligent about it, it can fall off, and will thus not give its benefit to the player. For the warlock in question, I wouldn’t trust her with it, and would rather see passive benefits all around.
Xmolder, are you talking about Spell Power? Which stat are you talking about with regard to “605 unbuffed”? Or is that spirit you’re talking about? Just curious.
Spirit, Mailynn. I have 2,662 spell power without Fel Armor, flask, or anything else.