So at some point last week, my brother, Fog, decided to try to get a 10-man alt run going.
Due to reasons that consist primarily of “because I’m his big sister” and “I don’t loathe my hunter”, I elected to attend. I spent a lot of time this week gearing Kurn up, from a 331 ilvl to a 346 ilvl. I crafted stuff, went on more runs than I can count… I made sure I was at 8% hit, on the nose. I studied what Marksmanship hunters do, or are supposed to do. I really felt like I knew what I was doing. So I was prepared for the run. I even tamed a freaking Ravager because our proposed group makeup was lacking the physical damage debuff.
Things didn’t go so well.
Two, perhaps three people who said they’d be up for it, didn’t show. They gave warning, at least.
So we filled with a couple.
Bastion of Twilight trash sucks, even on 10-man. I personally wiped the raid once and will take credit for a second time. Hot tip: don’t CC crap on the stairs/at the top of the stairs. They can and will aggro the sides when their CC wears off.
So we settled in for a bunch of Halfus attempts after trash went by (and no BOE epics!).
Slate, Storm and Whelps. Not the best combination ever.
While I was very comfortable on the fight, tanks kept dying. Whether it’s due to their gear or the healer’s gear or the healer assignments, I don’t know. But it was ugly. And then the raid kept dying because of the proto-behemoth, so we spent the last few pulls getting Storm and Whelps out ASAP (yours truly on the whelp opening/misdirection) and working from there.
It was rough and it was pretty sadly very clear that only a few of us had prepared for the fight appropriately. Others weren’t hit capped, didn’t know their class abilities, didn’t know what to do in a new role. You could tell people weren’t glyphed properly and you could tell that there was a huge disparity between some people’s levels of preparation and interest.
It also allowed me to see how the other half lives, for lack of a better term. I avoid 10s like the plague. And yet, here we were on a 10-man run and we’d already had to fill with a couple people due to cancellations. It was that or call the raid. Granted, it was poorly organized — no calendar invites or anything — but the forums had been pretty active with talk about Monday’s run.
So it was a weird night. Some good attempts on Halfus, but many icky ones.
I finished up the night with a pug 10-man Baradin Hold on Kurn.
I topped DPS with almost 19k, didn’t die, took very little Fel Fire damage and then promptly got the Argaloth achievement. That amused me. Granted, I was still flasked and I did drop a feast for the group and then I also used a Tol’Vir potion during heroism.
But I still felt pretty damn good about my overall performance in BH. And in BoT, for that matter.
I guess that’s one reason I don’t like tens, when I think about it; they’re never going to be as “serious” for me as the 25s. The 25s are like a job, they’re like work. And everyone knows that if you’re screwing up, you’ll get swapped out, either now or for next time. Everyone knows that there’s a measure of performance that has to be put out. And if it’s not, well, too bad for you.
You don’t have that luxury in tens and you certainly don’t have that attitude in tens. At least not the one I ran tonight.
I’ll be thrilled to get back to my 25s tomorrow, that’s for sure… but it was an interesting and educational night.
— Edit —
I’m not sure what on earth people took from the above to mean “this is why all 10s are the suck”, but clearly they have. Let me say that the only comparisons I made to other people’s 10s as compared to 25s is the attendance thing and the swap-outs thing.
“It also allowed me to see how the other half lives, for lack of a better term. I avoid 10s like the plague. And yet, here we were on a 10-man run and we’d already had to fill with a couple people due to cancellations. It was that or call the raid.”
This, as I understand it, is an issue in 10s. I did not mean to imply that the poor preparation of the raiders here had anything to do with other people’s actual 10-man runs or that people who raid 10s are not serious ot anything of the kind.
As to this:
“Everyone knows that there’s a measure of performance that has to be put out. And if it’s not, well, too bad for you.
You don’t have that luxury in tens and you certainly don’t have that attitude in tens. At least not the one I ran tonight.”
The “luxury” of which I’m speaking is swapping people in and out when you have a really small roster. If your 10-man team consists of 10 people, period, then you can’t swap people out and the raiders don’t have the concern of being immediately swapped out upon a bad performance.
None of this is saying 10s suck, 25s are better and none of this is saying the 10-man run went badly because it was a 10-man run. I’m well-aware the run didn’t go well because of the lack of preparation/execution by the raiders and that it had nothing to do with it being on 10-man.
Honestly, folks, I know that I’m biased in favour of 25s and that’s where I’m comfortable, but I’m not a complete bitch who disregards the strides and such that 10-mans make. Sheesh.
While I prefer 25s (and am currently stuck running 10s), you really should realize the different situation between the two raids. That alt 10 might as well have been a trade PuG. It is definitely possible to run a 10 man as hard core as a 25, sometimes even more so because 10s guilds tend to have a smaller bench or no bench at all. Meanwhile, how many BH or VoA 25 PuGs have you been in with people performing horribly?
As long as people are communicating, the early bosses are not hard. Halfus and Omnotron especially.
You were expecting these replies, weren’t you? :)
It’s not a matter of 10s vs 25s in your case. It’s a matter of a 10 alt run with unprepared people and a 25 main run of raiders. Of course the 10-man will go bad, it’s almost a given. But that doesn’t mean that all 10-mans are the same. Yes, 25-mans might feel more epic and everything, but player skill stays the same in any difficulty.
I think you’re more a victim of the ‘alt run’ than of the 10. Our guild has about 12 serious raiders, 20 not-so-serious. Our occasional 25s are masterpieces of slack, the 10 is where we get stuff killed.
That’s a pretty horrible comparison really. You should try 10’s as a 5/13 HC or more progressed guild. You keep a bench and swap people depending on the fight because most of theme are tuned to need specific classes. Meanwhile you also have to cope with the substantially smaller amount of drops you get in comparison to 25s.
There is also the lack of HC strategies floating around for 10mans, I could go to google and find 25man tacs for any heroic mode, 10man tacs require several adaptations and no one’s telling you how.
On the subject of alt raids, we went 7 and 8/12 during consecutive resets on a single day. Knowing tacs and having semi-serious people does the trick just fine.
PS: Pull everything on Halfus, at once, chain CDS and nuke down whelps+a dragon. It’ll be easier.
I love our guildies dearly, but I am really surprised at the comedy of errors that you had mentioned some people were taking part in. I also saw your thread on the guild boards about this.
I really don’t think it’s a reflection on 10 mans in general, because I did 10 mans and 10 man hard modes before I knew what I wanted to do with Oestrus after I came back from my 2 month break from the game. They were very rewarding and fulfilling – if everyone was on their game.
You can’t hide mistakes or failures very well in a 10 man and so everyone need to be at their most prepared. There isn’t any room for really carrying someone in a 10 man. If you can’t count on all 10 people to do a good job, your run isn’t going to go anywhere.
I really wish I could have been there and would still like to. I just wanted to get a good night’s sleep and prepare for my interview without having to worry about being at the top of my game on a 10 man run.
Save me a seat for the future!
You know, I used to hold a similar point of view when I was a 25man raider, and it was exactly because my own exposure to 10man raids was with my alts and kind of half-assed, pugged attempts with a lack of intent.
Now that I’ve switched to 10man raiding full-time I realize the error of my ways. There is NO room for error in a 10man raid. One person dying makes such a huge difference. In fact, I’ve found that I’ve had to become a BETTER player in 10mans. There are fewer classes and specs available per encounter, which means everybody has to be willing to think outside of the box in order to get the same functionality that you would find naturally in a 25man.
I agree with the previous commenters, I think the bad experience with your run had more to do with the lack of preparation and pugging than it did with being a 10man raid.
ouch sorry to hear it did not go so well!
25 vs 10 man. I admit i miss running 25 man raids at time. But 10s for me now I am content with. It just seems with a 10 man raid…everyone has to be running at 100%, the element of failure seems to be higher fs someone dies in 10 man vs 25 man, from what I have seen so far in Cata.
The purpose of this run, besides fun was always to instill perspective in our raiders.
The problem is, for a sucessful alt (10 man – and I agree with above comments on everyone’s NEED to perform – heck even at 85% would have gotten us a kill – sadly, it wasn’t the case) requires raiders to already have perspective. Sure, the tank swap was not known to tanks before (god love you two :D), it was handled. Sure, Shadow Nova is the ability to be interrpted; handled – oh wait no, we weren’t hit capped! Doh!
There were some obvious issues is what I’m getting at. We just need to address them and try again! Gneiss is /ready!
Joe Ego, Jen, Nina, Técaro, Janyaa – See my edit above. Seriously, I’m a 25-man raider at heart, but I’m not biased enough to recognize the actual issues that occurred in the raid. I’m a raid leader, for crying out loud. I know fail when I see it! :)
Oestrus – You sure you wanna be there? ;D
slice – Meh, bad runs happen and hopefully people will have learned from their mistakes. I’m glad you’re enjoying 10s! And I do agree that mistakes are easier to cover up in 25s than in 10s. You can afford to lose a couple of people on 25, but not so in a 10. It’s one reason why I like the teamwork aspect of a 25-man better, especially as a healer. A group of 10 is a bit large for me to think of as a “team”, but a team of 7 who are all healers is my favourite. :)
Miss healing with you, buddy!!
Fog – Yes, there were issues. I know what most of the issues were. It had nothing to do with group size and everything to do with the preparation and execution of the raid group. Etc, etc.
Apart from trash, btw, I did awesome. ;D
You’re still making ridiculous claims in your edit. There are as many serious 10man raids with a 10man roster as there are 25man raids on a 25man roster. We raid on a roster of 15 regular people, most of them with specific offspecs as well so we can match encounter requirements. We’ve replaced underperforming people plenty of times and we make sure we have the capacity to do so.
The luxury or attitude you refer to is at best applicable to alt raids, not 10mans, a key distinction you appeared to not grasp in your original post. That’s why people lashed out.
On that note, if you’re ever wondering about 10man tactics I’ll gladly lend you a hand, gl with future alt runs.
Certainly for our 10 mans, you only made the team in the first place because you performed better/were more dedicated than the rest of our former 25 man group. The latter was so full of fail that we eventually gave up on 25s, and I still remember some horrible alt runs to Serpenshrine on 25 that ended up us wiping on farm bosses over and over, so it can be just the same in 25s.
For the times when we have people missing we invite other guildies who are only too eager to join us, and they are well aware that if they fail to make the standard then someone else will get invited next time. Yes, sometimes we have to call it because we have 3 or 4 people missing, and roster depth is more of a problem for 10s, I agree.
My main gripe with tens is only getting 2 pieces of loot, and you can kill the same boss over and over and not get the items you want. Other than that, I prefer 10s completely over 25s. Each to their own, and of course, neither is ‘better’ than the other.
Kurn, I’m sorry if my response sounded like I was implying you’re a witch. It was not what I meant, and certainly not what I was thinking. I, too, was a dedicated 25man raider for quite a long time, and I admit that I did have a bias towards 25man raiding as being more “serious” and more like “work.”
I guess, what I was trying to convey in my previous comment is that, until you’re in a dedicated 10man it makes sense that 25mans would feel that way. However, after I switched over, I found that it’s just not true. I would argue that BECAUSE you know there aren’t any replacements and there isn’t a bench, you feel the pressure to always be on your game and you’re more aware that there is less room for error. If you’re not playing well, you know that not only are you letting yourself down, but the other 9 people who are in the raid with you. You realize that the raid most likely won’t be able to down the boss or be able to progress that night or that week.
One of the biggest differences I’ve noticed between 10mans and 25mans is the lack of administration. When I was the healing lead for 25mans, and an officer in general, I felt the need to analyze my play but other players as well. And, I truly felt that it was necessary. Some people just need more direction than others. With 10mans, there’s less need for that. You’re cherry picking the best of the best in that class, that you know can fulfill that role at a high level, consistently. The expectation is that you analyze and adjust yourself. You are responsible for yourself. It’s been a very liberating feeling knowing that I don’t have to worry about others to do their job. It also requires a great deal of trust and respect to relax and know the others will be able to hold their end up.
I think part of the fun with 25mans was feeling like I was needed to do all the extra administration things. By doing healing assignments and pouring over the logs and talking to other players about their performance, it made me feel important and necessary; like the group wouldn’t be able to be as successful without my input and presence. By going to 10mans and making everybody responsible for themselves, I lost that role and I was afraid that I wouldn’t feel as relevant. Instead, what has replaced that has been a group of peers, the ability to trust my fellow raiders, and the freedom to stretch my own muscles and play the game purely to my own strengths without the weight of everyone else.
Anyway, I’m sorry to write a book for this comment. I know I can get a bit long-winded. I just wanted to share with you some of my own insights with switching over and make sure you realized I didn’t think you were being condescending, just that there were some other factors that maybe weren’t being considered. I wish you and your guild many bosskills and future success!
Funny, I raid in 10-man HC for the exact opposite you are describing.
I raid with a very tight group of 12 people, we are sitting at 4/13 HM, working on several other bosses. We chose this format because we were so tired of having to make up for the slack of 10 to 15 people in a 25-man raid.
Because you can’t be behind every raider in a 35 people roster. In 25’s, especially since Cata, one mistake won’t kill your raid, you can finish a fight with 24 people. Some people can slack at the bottom of the dps meter. You can’t afford it in 10’s. At the moment, raiding HC 10’s is harder, and very rewarding by the way (not in term of gearing the raid though).
Like other commenters said above : alt raid. Enough said. In alt raids people think it will be some easy gear run, expecting others to make up for their slack at knowing their class and role. I can assure you that our main 10-man is made of the best of the best we could find, they know their class from alpha to omega. They know the strats. They barely fail.
Yet, when we do alt raids, we sometimes have surprises… Some people play all their toons very well, like you seem to with your hunter, and others are just plain bad at it. Our main tank don’t know how to heal with his druid, always dies or grab aggro with his mage, our shaman misses interrupts when tanking, and so on.
I’ll be frank with you, the way you said it, was sounding a bit insulting to 10-man raiders, especially hardcore ones, who face some really hard content for their size these days. I don’t think you wanted it to sound like that of course, but it does.
I think you and your team-mates were expecting an easy run and were disappointed. 10s are not easy any more like it used to be in WotLK. With a raid in 346ilvl, you need to play really well to kill bosses. I was there in the beginning. You need a good raidcomp. Because you can’t afford carrying anyone. Your big mistake accepting to run this was to accept to carry people who didn’t take the time to do what you did : searching their class, gearing and enchanting, checking rotations and strats. You went in like you could in a 25s, pulled everything and expected to loot. Nope, doesn’t work that way in 10s…
I think that people are forgetting the fact that to coordinate 25 people is more complicated than coordinating 10 people.
This is not to besmirch 10 man raiding. I loved KZ. A lot. However, I disagree with you 10 man die-hards when you say you can down content with 24 people alive. Progression nights require your 25 raiders to do their job. Especially moving into HM content.
My gear was just dandy tyvm! Talk to that priest that healed me mk?
And crap. I want an edit button.
@Fog- once we knew about the tank swaps, I think we did pretty good!
We weren’t expecting an ‘easy’ run. We weren’t expecting to faceroll 10man content. We went in there to try to down some bosses, and see the instance from a new perspective. While it’s nice to “win”, I still had fun despite not killing anything. *shrug*
Part of the problem is that while we have many people in the guild who have alts, a lot of people don’t want to commit to another night of raiding on a character that doesn’t matter as much.
For this reason, we likely won’t ever have an optimal comp – but again, alt run.
Another problem is that some people just aren’t as good on their alts (which Nef said). Some people don’t care to put in the effort that 4-5 others might want to. Like Kurn, I spent hours reading bear tank guides, forums, checking armories, etc so that I knew what I needed to be able to do my job.
Unfortunately, I can’t (and won’t) police people’s alts all the time, they have to put in the work themselves – again, some people don’t care (or don’t have the time to do so).
Next time we go in there, we’ll have to take people who put in the effort, and who really know their stuff or we’ll just have trouble.
@ Kal… I healed you like a champ and you know it! ;)
And yes, I am with you when you say bring those who are prepared, but had we done that we would have been short… 3-4?
I honestly had fun, too. I mean, winning WOULD have been nice, but even when we got to roars on Halfus I was happy… well not when you died at the first one because PS was on CD from the beginning of the fight.
HOWEVER, I do look forward to doing it again. Even if it means bashing our heads against a wall :P